Curse

Kurow · Apr 27, 2006, 07:17 PM // 19:17

I have to agree with Jetdoc, Necromancers are almost designed to beat warriors. If you add on a mes secondary, they could probably beat any warrior that attacked with a melee weapon. I think MMs are whining about this nerf way too much. So what if they made MMing mediocre now? Is it so bad to have a build that is as good as others?

Evilsod · Apr 27, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Some use that'll be. If we could have more than 1 of them after the limit of 10 minions has been introduced i might use them. As it stand Flesh Golem will NEVER be on my skillbar as i'll need it for Glyph of Renewal to counter the stupid RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing nerf of VS.

SirJackassIII · Apr 27, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

You know what's sad?

2 things:
- Necromancers get Minion Master *cough* armour, which gives +10 AL when you have 3+ minions. VS recharges instantly unless you have 4+ Minions. To gain both effects, you have to have 3 minions at all times. 1 dies and you lose 1 benefit. You raise 1 more and you lose another. Talk about crap armour.

- Verata. Tyria's very own Minion Master. His name is now linked to a crappy Minion healing skill. Lore says that Verata was so powerful he made his own MM skills to make Minions live much longer, beyond their normal lifespan (Verata's Saccrifice), but also skills to steal minions from their master (Gaze and Aura). ANet shot itself in the foot here by screwing up their own Lore by nerfing Verata's Saccrifice.

So, when are they removing Verata from the game? You can't expect any serious player to consider VS "a skill to make them live beyond their normal lifespan"...

Son of Urza · Apr 27, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

The thing is, even with GoR, you can only keep V's Sac up 10-12 (what's the duration at 16 now again?) seconds out of 16, the time required to recharge and cast GoR. However, I DID hear someone say that BotM has a much bigger range now, so that might help some . . .

xenoranger · Apr 27, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Wow.

In PvE, with my non-minion master N/Me, I have soloed (without henchmen) almost the entire game (before the Ring of Fire). You just have to be diverse in your skill selection and don't go toe-to-toe with certain enemies. Kite like the wind.

In PvP, I love going one-on-one versus a warrior. 16 Curses + 12 Domination generally results in a very dead warrior very quickly.

I think that this forces Necromancers to get out of their cookie-cutter builds and be a bit more ingenuitive. And yes, minions can be a part of those builds, but maybe not the sole reason for the build.

I would love to see your build. My original is N/Me. I find that 16 in curses isn't worth it on most. Still, if you could share this build, I'd like to hear it.

Also, Golems are nice, but you can only have 1 at a time. IMO, Vamp Horrors should have limits as well or be weaker than fiends.

in about 30 min, I leave work, and if I like what I see, I ain't gonna be as pissed, but if I don't, ANet's definitely getting a nasty-gram.

I encourage others to email your displeasure as well.

Ninetail Trickster · Apr 27, 2006, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Okay, see, they compensated a bit, so I don't mind. But if this is about the vampiric horrors, wouldn't a better solution be to prevent a person from having more than x vamps?
Watching massive armies was just too cool...

....BUT heck, I'm going blood/curses anyhow.

Kurow · Apr 27, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

So can someone actually definatively prove that MMs are now worse than other classes, like BMs were for so long, or is this just a bunch of people crying about Anet nerfing something they like?

xenoranger · Apr 27, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

You know what's sad?

2 things:
- Necromancers get Minion Master *cough* armour, which gives +10 AL when you have 3+ minions. VS recharges instantly unless you have 4+ Minions. To gain both effects, you have to have 3 minions at all times. 1 dies and you lose 1 benefit. You raise 1 more and you lose another. Talk about crap armour.

- Verata. Tyria's very own Minion Master. His name is now linked to a crappy Minion healing skill. Lore says that Verata was so powerful he made his own MM skills to make Minions live much longer, beyond their normal lifespan (Verata's Saccrifice), but also skills to steal minions from their master (Gaze and Aura). ANet shot itself in the foot here by screwing up their own Lore by nerfing Verata's Saccrifice.

So, when are they removing Verata from the game? You can't expect any serious player to consider VS "a skill to make them live beyond their normal lifespan"...

Heh.. nice catch.

So, Verata's a wannabe now. Interesting. VS was my main minion healing skill, but this nerf raises even more questions.

If you have to maintain minions, then what?
Say I steal a minion using Verata's Aura/Gaze. Do I get the -1 to mana regen or do you keep it? Is the -1 upkeep about control or life? (IE: if I kill that, does the minion die or become masterless)

How do Golems fit into this? Are they like minions or elite minions when it comes to binding?

When do I get iron golems, and what items will I have to use to animate them?.... wait, wrong game... oops.

Ira Blinks · Apr 27, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

this is sooo random... so whats next? nerf firestorm?

salaboB · Apr 27, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

(Off Topic: Even the 55 Monk nerf was dumb b/c you can easily kill a 55 by stripping enchantments... Duh. I guess stupid players were having trouble figuring that out)

Clue for you: 55 monk nerf was not because of PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeFall

The problem that I see is with the -1 energy thing. I don't run a pure MM build, mine is a mix of minions and damage support spells. I'm always starved for energy, so this seems like it's really gonna kill me. I guess time will tell.

Where are you getting -1 energy? I've experimented some with minions and I haven't run into it yet.

Stabber · Apr 27, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

this is sooo random... so whats next? nerf firestorm?

Nope. Next up is Barrage. It will cost 10 energy and be easily interruptible. You heard it here first.

bobrath · Apr 27, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue cheez

I think we can conclude from this that EVERYONE IS PISSED AT THE NEW NERFING OF MINIONS.

Actually no you can't conclude that. I'm a MM that is frankly willing to give this new limit a chance and see what builds I can pull off that allow me to cause damage and help my team. I'm certainly not pissed and I think you need to pause and actually examine the changes before getting so high up on your soap box that the fall hurts.

Quote:

All this did was make Necromancers an even weaker profession in PvE, and continues to give Minion-Master PvP'er even less of a chance of having success at PvP.

Ok, so since a MM can't have an army of 30, he's suddenly weaker? Perhaps now instead of just spamming 4 skills as they recharge (Summon Fiend, Summon Horror, and VS) a necro might have the opportunity to use the rest of his death lines?!?!? Oh crud, please don't make me have to think!

BTW, when did it become a rule that every build had to function in PvP? Minion masters have always been dependant upon corpses. In small battles, there just aren't corpses available. Heck in PvP my necro does a much better job in the blood and curses line - warriors don't want me near them.

BoTM was buffed to heal summons in a far larger radius. VS has become a skill that's more useful when corpses are at a premium. Start thinking of VS as the necro version of Comfort Animal.

I just don't get why so many folks are so willing to jump on this change as a horrible, game ending event. Its just not that bad. It just means that build copying experts will need to find some other class/build to copy and claim their leetness with.

xenoranger · Apr 27, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurow

So can someone actually definatively prove that MMs are now worse than other classes, like BMs were for so long, or is this just a bunch of people crying about Anet nerfing something they like?

First off, you should look at an MM skill bar. The MM skill bar has few attacks and all minion management skills. As such, the MM is support only. Their job is to make minions after things start dying. But, the MM themselves are frail and very easily killed. As such, an MM must use skills like Dark Bond and Infuse COndition to draw conditions to the minions. THis makes the minions weaker. It becomes a balance of weakenning minions and the master. If you go N/Mo, you can compensate a little by healing, but to be effective and not run outta energy, you need high soul reaping or offering of blood. either way, a MM is at his/her weakest when doing 1 of 2 things. Either A) Animating minions or B) Healing minions.

Why???

A) Animating Minions
3 second casting time makes them easy to interrupt. The cost is higher than most skills (15 min) and they can't move at all or they have to restart the casting. If you get a warrior or mesmer on them (even a ranger with distracting shot), you can prevent them from creating minions.

B) Healing Minions
All minion healing skills require a sacrifice. Sacrificing costs life. Just wail on a sacrificing necro. Sure, they can use monk skills to protect or heal themselves afterward, but because of the high costs for effective minions in death and soul reaping, points in healing are generally what's left over. Basically, a N/Mo won't be much stronger than a simple N (only) build for an MM.

oh... I should add C) Recovering energy)

Why... The best MM's require tons of energy. Since horrors are stupid, you need to go with Fiends. Fiends cost 25 per. Basically, you use fiends and horror in tandum. This way, your army will grow and be at high levels. How is this bad? Well, soul reaping gives a +1 per level. You need it failry high to keep up with the casting costs to be effective. And if enemies aren't dying enough, you need Offering of Blood to replenish lost energy. The problem here is that once again, you're sacrificing or out of energy. Weakness.

I could write loads of tutorials on how to kill an MM. They have so many weaknesses and are a huge liability. Basically, Kill the MM, and the minions turn on the party. Simple formula. In GVG, Warriors would go after me when I played MM. As soon as I was down, they didn't have to worry about my minions. The minions attacked whatever was closest (friend and foe) and died fairly quickly b/c of AOE skills used.

To honestly say that the MM is a strong build is foolish talk. It's useful, but also a huge liability. Especially when I've had 30+ minions, died, and my minions overtook my own party.

If you can honestly consider what I've said and still say the MM is too powerful, try reading it again. MM is useful primarily in the field. Very limited in PvP.. and even with Vamp HOrrors, you still can't say that MMing is all that powerful.

Just nerf the vamp horrors (by limiting their numbers) and you'll have a much easier answer to the problem of invincible MM's using VHorrors.

Kurow · Apr 27, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

First off, you should look at an MM skill bar. The MM skill bar has few attacks and all minion management skills. As such, the MM is support only. Their job is to make minions after things start dying. But, the MM themselves are frail and very easily killed. As such, an MM must use skills like Dark Bond and Infuse COndition to draw conditions to the minions. THis makes the minions weaker. It becomes a balance of weakenning minions and the master. If you go N/Mo, you can compensate a little by healing, but to be effective and not run outta energy, you need high soul reaping or offering of blood. either way, a MM is at his/her weakest when doing 1 of 2 things. Either A) Animating minions or B) Healing minions.

Why???

A) Animating Minions
3 second casting time makes them easy to interrupt. The cost is higher than most skills (15 min) and they can't move at all or they have to restart the casting. If you get a warrior or mesmer on them (even a ranger with distracting shot), you can prevent them from creating minions.

B) Healing Minions
All minion healing skills require a sacrifice. Sacrificing costs life. Just wail on a sacrificing necro. Sure, they can use monk skills to protect or heal themselves afterward, but because of the high costs for effective minions in death and soul reaping, points in healing are generally what's left over. Basically, a N/Mo won't be much stronger than a simple N (only) build for an MM.

oh... I should add C) Recovering energy)

Why... The best MM's require tons of energy. Since horrors are stupid, you need to go with Fiends. Fiends cost 25 per. Basically, you use fiends and horror in tandum. This way, your army will grow and be at high levels. How is this bad? Well, soul reaping gives a +1 per level. You need it failry high to keep up with the casting costs to be effective. And if enemies aren't dying enough, you need Offering of Blood to replenish lost energy. The problem here is that once again, you're sacrificing or out of energy. Weakness.

I could write loads of tutorials on how to kill an MM. They have so many weaknesses and are a huge liability. Basically, Kill the MM, and the minions turn on the party. Simple formula. In GVG, Warriors would go after me when I played MM. As soon as I was down, they didn't have to worry about my minions. The minions attacked whatever was closest (friend and foe) and died fairly quickly b/c of AOE skills used.

To honestly say that the MM is a strong build is foolish talk. It's useful, but also a huge liability. Especially when I've had 30+ minions, died, and my minions overtook my own party.

If you can honestly consider what I've said and still say the MM is too powerful, try reading it again. MM is useful primarily in the field. Very limited in PvP.. and even with Vamp HOrrors, you still can't say that MMing is all that powerful.

Just nerf the vamp horrors (by limiting their numbers) and you'll have a much easier answer to the problem of invincible MM's using VHorrors.

You could write a tutorial on how to kill x with any class. Are they actually worse then other classes now? And if that one build is worse now... maybe you should change it? Novel idea, huh.

bobrath · Apr 27, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quoted for relevance:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Maybe, just maybe - they made this update because of PvE.

Just throwing that out there.

Peace,
-CxE

The MMs in 12v12 were perceived strong because folks a) didn't have VA or VG unlocked at the time and b) had rarely had to deal with full blown MM armies in the PvP realm. This combination meant the MMs could run across the battlefield as conquering heros (who didn't hear a "Here comes the MM!!!!" cry during 12v12?). As the FPE went on tho, folks started to figure out how to beat massive army necros. Does anyone truly believe that if the FPE was a week long event that by the end MMs would have seen their success drop dramatically in 12v12s?

Did Anet hear/see these cries? Possibly. Is it also possible that they saw the sheer power demonstrated in ToPK, SF, ettin runs, Desert Solos, and other PvE areas? The old MMs enabled one player to perform multiple roles with a minimum of effort.

Jetdoc · Apr 27, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

I would love to see your build. My original is N/Me. I find that 16 in curses isn't worth it on most. Still, if you could share this build, I'd like to hear it.

There are a variety of Necromancer and Mesmer PvP builds that can be found throughout the forums, but here's some of the core skills I've been playing with:

16 Curses and 12 Illusion

Clumsiness
Ineptitude (E)
Distortion or Sympathetic Visage
Price of Failure
Faintheartedness (or Shadow of Fear if you're preparing for IWAY)

16 Curses and 12 Domination

Empathy
Wastrel's Worry (just in case they bring the hex helm or decide to sit still during hexes)
Spiteful Spirit (E)
Price of Failure
Faintheartedness (or Shadow of Fear if you're preparing for IWAY)

I've even played with a Crippling Anguish build, which helps with kiting those pesky Sprint/Rush warriors.

There are just way too many permutations to narrow it down to a single build that works all of the time. But some of these core skills really can put a cramp in a warrior's style, especially if they decide to attack through these hexes (or be stupid enough to Frenzy while they are in effect).

Fargin Scotchsman · Apr 27, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

this nerf pisses me off so f**king bad, mm wuz my favorite class, and i used to be able to upkeep armies of like, 15-25 horrors/minions. i now despise anet, curse u anet, curse u......

MelechRic · Apr 27, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Quoted for relevance:

The MMs in 12v12 were perceived strong because folks a) didn't have VA or VG unlocked at the time and b) had rarely had to deal with full blown MM armies in the PvP realm. This combination meant the MMs could run across the battlefield as conquering heros (who didn't hear a "Here comes the MM!!!!" cry during 12v12?). As the FPE went on tho, folks started to figure out how to beat massive army necros. Does anyone truly believe that if the FPE was a week long event that by the end MMs would have seen their success drop dramatically in 12v12s?

Did Anet hear/see these cries? Possibly. Is it also possible that they saw the sheer power demonstrated in ToPK, SF, ettin runs, Desert Solos, and other PvE areas? The old MMs enabled one player to perform multiple roles with a minimum of effort.

I did the MM thing on FPE... for about 3 rounds of 12v12. Then I figured something out: my blood spiker build could own.

MM is fun and it has been profitable for me in terms of SF/ToPK farming. However, it's not really what has made me the most plat in this game or given me the most enjoyment.

My 55hp iNecro and my blood spiker build combined with good knowledge of where to farm has made me the most plat.

My blood spiker and curse builds have been the most fun in terms of PvP.

Overall, while I'm sad that I won't be able to animate 30+ minions, I'm not going to fret too much. I still have faith in my little green goth girl's ability to compensate.

As for the ANet nerf... basically they just downgraded MM's so that people would give Ele's a second look.

Evilsod · Apr 27, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Why couldn't they just leave a limit alone.

Why not make BotM sacrifice 1% health for each minion you have and start at 0%. Least then if you were stocking up on hundreds of minions you'd really suffer from casting it.

kaldak · Apr 27, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurow

So can someone actually definatively prove that MMs are now worse than other classes, like BMs were for so long, or is this just a bunch of people crying about Anet nerfing something they like?

The way I saw it, MMs were so powerful because they were situational (needed lots of corpses, and had problems if battles were not frequent) and had less control then almost any other build out there. Minions lacked the intelligence of pets, often aggroing when you didnt want them to or not concentrating their attacks where you wanted them. That was the tradeoff for having so much damage potential when the situation was just right. Now an MM still has all of those restrictions and problems, but could probably barely outdamage a Barrage ranger under the best of conditions.

So yeah, I would say that MMs are now weaker than most support builds. Minion bomber is still probably quite doable, but without a better way of targeting minions for death nova it isnt a very enjoyable build for me.